Roland vs Freddie

Conversation + Rap Battle

Hey guys. This is a bonus post with details of two unbelievably lucky events that occurred in our city recently¹. Duane and I were in River Coffee and we happened to overhear a conversation between two luminaries in education research and philosophy who met up to discuss Decatur Public Schools. I’ve done my best to transcribe the highlights of the conversation in the post below.

But wait, there’s more! Because we knew both these guys are not only smart but also great singers and rappers, after their conversation we convinced them go into a music studio and record a Rap Battle explaining their positions on education and what we should do in Decatur to help our schools.

I recommend you read the transcript below before listening to the track, but since I know some of you won’t, I’ve posted the lyrics to the song at the end of this post to help you follow along.

The Rap Battle

River Coffee conversation transcript between:

Roland Fryer - American economist and professor at Harvard University, and

Freddie deBoer – Author of The Cult of Smart - How our broken education system perpetuates social injustice.

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Roland Fryer: Hi Freddie. I liked your book “The Cult of Smart” and appreciate your Substack and I agree with a lot of what you say. So, we have a good foundation for our discussion on what we think we should do to help the Decatur Public School system. Why don’t you start by giving us your ideas on what we can do to improve the outcomes of DPS students?

Freddie deBoer: Hey Roland. I’ve always appreciated your honesty and commitment to trying to identify the things that matter to improve education, but I’m sorry to say, I’ve got nothing in the way of ideas to help Decatur. It’s clear to me from nationwide numbers that there really isn’t anything we can do, and the more we keep using the same old methods that have been tried over the last fifty years, the more time and money we waste. I now work under the belief that we should simply accept our fate and attempt to make school as attractive for both students and teachers as we can, recognizing the fate of the students is mostly set, and attempt to make the environment as pleasant and entertaining as possible. The students that are predisposed to succeed - will succeed, regardless of our efforts. And likewise, the students that are dispositioned to fail, will end up failing no matter what we try.

Roland Fryer: What? Come on! Nothing? Are you going to just give up? Freddie, you're so caught up in national statistics that you fail to recognize that there are possibilities for helping cohorts of students in individual districts. Isn’t it possible that a district like Decatur could be underperforming, and that by making a few changes to the system, we could yield positive results?

Freddie deBoer: You’re implying that the district has been sitting on their hands for the last 20 years and not doing anything. Don't you think that if there were things they could have been done in Decatur, they would have tried them over the last 10 years? But nothing has worked. Test scores continue to decline relative to the state. Isn't it time we face reality and stop this insane effort to make every kid college ready? How about we try something different to give the kids a chance in life and stop fooling them that they will graduate college and become a lawyer, or whatever.

Roland Fryer: Look Freddie, I get what you're saying, but students and children in general, will live up to or down to expectations, and with an attitude like that you're suggesting we write off every kid in DPS. I'm not suggesting that the DPS test scores are going to spring up above state averages, but I would suggest that Decatur, being the lowest of the low, could with some help, approach the scores of Chicago public schools or at least Peoria. Isn't that something that seems possible?

Freddie deBoer: Well, I'm all for it, but what can be done? You're the Harvard PHD… Are there any, and I mean any, reforms we could make that have proven effective at some level of statistical significance?

Roland Fryer: Sure! Small group learning. Individual tutoring. Those things are ways that have been proven, in rigorous, well administered statistical research studies, to help. How about we start there?

Freddie deBoer: OK, you may be right – small group learning might be an intervention that could help slightly at the margins. But I’ve got two problems with that line of thought:

1. Where are the teachers going to come from for the enormous amount of individual RTI that will be required? DPS can’t find enough teachers now, and the general feeling of the public appears to be - if you have money, you should spend that money on new buildings, or to keep dilapidated old buildings that should be demolished open, despite where you or I might say the money should be spent. But more importantly,

2. In the 2024 Illinois Assessment of Readiness (IAR) test for English and Language Arts (ELA) 9.4% of the DPS students met standards (could read at grade level) while 41.2% of the state students met standards. While the state percentage has increased from 37.8% to 41.2% over the last 5 years, DPS levels have declined from 12.3% to the 9.4% mentioned above. But let’s say you miraculously come up with a way to increase Decatur’s percentage by 5%, to let’s just say 14.4%, while holding the state’s numbers constant (because remember college and life, in general, is a competition, and it’s relative performances that matter) AND you’re able to let that 5% improvement carry forward through12th grade (which most evidence suggests it will not) do you honestly think you’re going to effect the outcomes of the 23 (450 graduates x 5% = 22.5) high school graduates who you were able to move above the met-state-standards line? You were able to move everyone up slightly and that pushed a few more people above the line, but does that mean any of those kids, with their relatively small improvements, are going to overcome all the other socio-economic barriers, and will now attend and graduate college at a higher rate. I don’t think that will happen.

Sorry, Roland, what else do you have?

Roland Fryer: OK, Freddie, be nice. I do have something else because, YES, I do think that a 5% increase will matter, but not in the way you mentioned. If more kids can read at grade level that means more kids will have the ability to pass one of the tests the trade unions give to enter their workforce. I agree that we need to throw out this insane notion that everyone needs to go to college and that Common Core is a trap the states have set up to hold the kids that need it most back. We can certainly identify the kids that have the potential to have good jobs – jobs that pay $100k or more a year – but have no interest in college and then put those kids in a CTE curriculum (Common Core be damned) and provide those kids with the resources they need to flourish in this new world. But this will take a whole new way to approach school!

Freddie deBoer: Now you’re talking my language. They differentiate kids between college track and work track in Europe, don’t they? Why can’t we do that here? We have this insane view that the only objective of public school is to prepare kids for college. But doesn’t DPS need to use Illinois version of Common Core standards to receive state funding?

Roland Fryer: Well, sort of. There are workarounds though, and there are districts in Arizona that have started mapping a high school CTE curriculum to at least rhyme with common core standards.

Freddie deBoer: Let’s go!!!! Roland, I think we can make a difference.

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And here’s the lyrics to the Rap Battle. Make sure you put your ear buds in and listen!

Roland vs Freddie – A DPS 61 Rap Battle

[Roland Fryer]
Yo Freddie, I read your work, respect what you say
But when it comes to DPS 61, we can't throw it away
Decatur Public Schools needs solutions, not surrender
You're stuck on national stats, but local change is the agenda

[Freddie deBoer]
Harvard man, please, I've seen this all before
Fifty years of failed reforms knocking at the door
Test scores dropping while we chase that college dream
The truth ain't pretty but it's clearer than it seems
DPS been falling, while the state keeps rising
Your optimism's cool, but let's stop compromising

[CHORUS]
Education's battlefield, where the stakes are high
Some kids gonna make it, others wonder why
Systems broke but we keep on trying to fix
Data versus hope, now which one sticks?

[Roland Fryer]
You're caught in that data trap, missing what's at stake
Small group learning works, that's no mistake
Kids rise or fall based on what we expect
Decatur can climb, show a little respect
You want proof? I got stats that don't lie
Individual tutoring makes those scores fly

[Freddie deBoer]
Nine percent reading at grade level, man
While the state's at forty-one, explain your master plan
And where you gonna find these teachers that we need?
When we can't staff classrooms, that's reality indeed
Would a little improvement provide your victory dance?
In the broader competition, they still don't stand a chance

[Roland Fryer]
Hold up now, you're missing what I mean
Trade unions need readers, if you know what I mean
Forget that college prep, that Common Core disease
Let's train these kids for jobs that pay with ease
CTE curriculum, that's the future path
A hundred K a year without college math

[BRIDGE]
When the numbers tell us no
But the kids still need to grow
Maybe there's a middle way
Where data meets the dreams today
Drop the college fantasy
Let's set these young minds free

[CHORUS]
Education's battlefield, where the stakes are high
Some kids gonna make it, others wonder why
Systems broke but we keep on trying to fix
Data versus hope, now which one sticks?

[Roland Fryer]
I’m gonna repeat so you hear what I mean
Trade skills are part of the answer, we know what we’ve seen
Forget that college prep, that Common Core disease
Let's train these kids for jobs that pay with ease
CTE curriculum, that's our future path
50 bucks an hour with no need of college math

[Freddie deBoer]
Now you're speaking truth, I feel that European flow
Track kids early, let their real potential show
Why we forcing college down everyone's throat?
When trade skills could keep their futures afloat
Yo Roland, maybe we can make this thing right
DPS 61 might see a brighter light

1. The conversation and the rap battle are (of course) made up, but I’ve done my best to stay true to what I think they would say and rap!